Comments on: Designing the digital tale http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/ media meets academia: site on media-related issues: journalism, media ethics, history and responsibilities, media effects and globalisation, and journalism education Tue, 06 Jul 2010 06:41:12 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.4 By: Alsman http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/#comment-11565 Alsman Thu, 10 Sep 2009 19:37:30 +0000 http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/#comment-11565 Hi Dennis There's a lot more I wanted to be able to say about the relationship between usability and narrative pleasure, but the editors here very sensibly restricted my word count! But essentially, I agree with you, and have said as much elsewhere - various theorists and researchers (Kendall, Murray, Calvi, eg) have talked about the need to make interactivity 'meaningful', i.e. make it drive the story. I think that's right, because most readers will, whatever academics or artists prefer, switch off if the story doesn't begin to appear. After a few clicks on hyper-words or images, most readers/users will expect a coherent narrative to begin to emerge. Expectations are crucially important. My empirical study showed that, and I've written about that for Roberto Simanowski on 'Dichtung Digital' - that piece should be online soonish. My argument here would be that writers can learn to 'manage' expecation by using their violations of web design, narrative structure, etc., carefully. We have to remember of course, that for hyper-fiction's future, the readers are going to be people very much used to clicking and watching and listening to stories, all in one place, their laptop (or maybe their iPhone) - they won't be people who come at literature solely from books. Thus hyper-novelists will need to think about appealing to readers whose expectations derive from multi-media as well as books (which is probably what you meant...). Beta-testing the interface is important, especailly as each new hyper-novel designs its own, unique style. It seems that not many wriers in the field do that, although I know that Robert Kendall has written about this process, and I believe Judy Malloy did revise elements of the interace for 'LOveOne'. It's interesting stuff, and is definitely an area where interactive/hyper/digital fiction (there really are so many terms being used out there that none fully does the job yet) can make 'progress'. cheers Jim Pope... Hi Dennis

There’s a lot more I wanted to be able to say about the relationship between usability and narrative pleasure, but the editors here very sensibly restricted my word count! But essentially, I agree with you, and have said as much elsewhere – various theorists and researchers (Kendall, Murray, Calvi, eg) have talked about the need to make interactivity ‘meaningful’, i.e. make it drive the story. I think that’s right, because most readers will, whatever academics or artists prefer, switch off if the story doesn’t begin to appear. After a few clicks on hyper-words or images, most readers/users will expect a coherent narrative to begin to emerge.

Expectations are crucially important. My empirical study showed that, and I’ve written about that for Roberto Simanowski on ‘Dichtung Digital’ – that piece should be online soonish. My argument here would be that writers can learn to ‘manage’ expecation by using their violations of web design, narrative structure, etc., carefully. We have to remember of course, that for hyper-fiction’s future, the readers are going to be people very much used to clicking and watching and listening to stories, all in one place, their laptop (or maybe their iPhone) – they won’t be people who come at literature solely from books. Thus hyper-novelists will need to think about appealing to readers whose expectations derive from multi-media as well as books (which is probably what you meant…).

Beta-testing the interface is important, especailly as each new hyper-novel designs its own, unique style. It seems that not many wriers in the field do that, although I know that Robert Kendall has written about this process, and I believe Judy Malloy did revise elements of the interace for ‘LOveOne’. It’s interesting stuff, and is definitely an area where interactive/hyper/digital fiction (there really are so many terms being used out there that none fully does the job yet) can make ‘progress’.
cheers
Jim Pope…

]]> By: Jim Pope http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/#comment-11398 Jim Pope Wed, 17 Jun 2009 14:28:15 +0000 http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/#comment-11398 Hi Mark Thanks for that - I agree that Roberts Kendall's work on Connection Muse isn't referenced often enough, and I don't do him justice in these two articles for Interjunction. His very insightful and practical ideas have certainly informed my own studies, teaching and creative work. Can you tell me if Michael Joyce reported on his 'beta-testing of Storyspace/afternoon? If so, where might I find that report? I'd very much like to read that. best wishes Hi Mark

Thanks for that – I agree that Roberts Kendall’s work on Connection Muse isn’t referenced often enough, and I don’t do him justice in these two articles for Interjunction. His very insightful and practical ideas have certainly informed my own studies, teaching and creative work.

Can you tell me if Michael Joyce reported on his ‘beta-testing of Storyspace/afternoon? If so, where might I find that report? I’d very much like to read that.
best wishes

]]> By: Mark Bernstein http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/#comment-11387 Mark Bernstein Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:52:13 +0000 http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/#comment-11387 > Beta-testing the interface is important, especailly as each new hyper-novel designs its own, unique style. It seems that not many wriers in the field do that.... Many writers don't call is "beta testing", but almost every hypertext writer I know does this. Joyce, of course, famously beta-tested _afternoon_ in the course of beta testing Storyspace. Deena Larsen offered workshops in beta testing (and used the term). So did Kendall, whose role as a pioneering instructor in this field has been too-seldom recognized. But lots of writers prefer to think of this in terms of workshopping and criticquing. This is, after all, what they often do with their conventional prose. Many notable hypertext writers hail from programs that foreground workshops: those that spring to mind include Joyce (Iowa), Jackson, Arnold (Brown), Cramer (Columbia), Greco (Brown, MIT, Columbia), Holeton (SFSU), McDaid (Clarion). > Beta-testing the interface is important, especailly as each new hyper-novel designs its own, unique style. It seems that not many wriers in the field do that….

Many writers don’t call is “beta testing”, but almost every hypertext writer I know does this. Joyce, of course, famously beta-tested _afternoon_ in the course of beta testing Storyspace. Deena Larsen offered workshops in beta testing (and used the term). So did Kendall, whose role as a pioneering instructor in this field has been too-seldom recognized.

But lots of writers prefer to think of this in terms of workshopping and criticquing. This is, after all, what they often do with their conventional prose. Many notable hypertext writers hail from programs that foreground workshops: those that spring to mind include Joyce (Iowa), Jackson, Arnold (Brown), Cramer (Columbia), Greco (Brown, MIT, Columbia), Holeton (SFSU), McDaid (Clarion).

]]> By: Jim Pope http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/#comment-11382 Jim Pope Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:54:39 +0000 http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/#comment-11382 Hi Dennis There's a lot more I wanted to be able to say about the relationship between usability and narrative pleasure, but the editors here very sensibly restricted my word count! But essentially, I agree with you, and have said as much elsewhere - various theorists and researchers (Kendall, Murray, Calvi, eg) have talked about the need to make interactivity 'meaningful', i.e. make it drive the story. I think that's right, because most readers will, whatever academics or artists prefer, switch off if the story doesn't begin to appear. After a few clicks on hyper-words or images, most readers/users will expect a coherent narrative to begin to emerge. Expectations are crucially important. My empirical study showed that, and I've written about that for Roberto Simanowski on 'Dichtung Digital' - that piece should be online soonish. My argument here would be that writers can learn to 'manage' expecation by using their violations of web design, narrative structure, etc., carefully. We have to remember of course, that for hyper-fiction's future, the readers are going to be people very much used to clicking and watching and listening to stories, all in one place, their laptop (or maybe their iPhone) - they won't be people who come at literature solely from books. Thus hyper-novelists will need to think about appealing to readers whose expectations derive from multi-media as well as books (which is probably what you meant...). Beta-testing the interface is important, especailly as each new hyper-novel designs its own, unique style. It seems that not many wriers in the field do that, although I know that Robert Kendall has written about this process, and I believe Judy Malloy did revise elements of the interace for 'LOveOne'. It's interesting stuff, and is definitely an area where interactive/hyper/digital fiction (there really are so many terms being used out there that none fully does the job yet) can make 'progress'. cheers Jim Pope Hi Dennis

There’s a lot more I wanted to be able to say about the relationship between usability and narrative pleasure, but the editors here very sensibly restricted my word count! But essentially, I agree with you, and have said as much elsewhere – various theorists and researchers (Kendall, Murray, Calvi, eg) have talked about the need to make interactivity ‘meaningful’, i.e. make it drive the story. I think that’s right, because most readers will, whatever academics or artists prefer, switch off if the story doesn’t begin to appear. After a few clicks on hyper-words or images, most readers/users will expect a coherent narrative to begin to emerge.

Expectations are crucially important. My empirical study showed that, and I’ve written about that for Roberto Simanowski on ‘Dichtung Digital’ – that piece should be online soonish. My argument here would be that writers can learn to ‘manage’ expecation by using their violations of web design, narrative structure, etc., carefully. We have to remember of course, that for hyper-fiction’s future, the readers are going to be people very much used to clicking and watching and listening to stories, all in one place, their laptop (or maybe their iPhone) – they won’t be people who come at literature solely from books. Thus hyper-novelists will need to think about appealing to readers whose expectations derive from multi-media as well as books (which is probably what you meant…).

Beta-testing the interface is important, especailly as each new hyper-novel designs its own, unique style. It seems that not many wriers in the field do that, although I know that Robert Kendall has written about this process, and I believe Judy Malloy did revise elements of the interace for ‘LOveOne’. It’s interesting stuff, and is definitely an area where interactive/hyper/digital fiction (there really are so many terms being used out there that none fully does the job yet) can make ‘progress’.
cheers
Jim Pope

]]> By: Jim Pope http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/#comment-11379 Jim Pope Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:55:28 +0000 http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/#comment-11379 Hi Mark, Of course Michael Joyce couldn't adhere to web conventions in 1987, and who would want 'aftenoon' to be anything but what it is, which is a wonderful piece of creativity (on a briliant platform!). But the purpose of my work is to find out what can be done now, given we do have a huge range of tools easily available, to help writers 'have a go' (and in my case I'm thinking of students of all ages, amateur writers, artists - anyone who might be interested in interactive new-media narrative forms) I want to expand interactive narrative out of a narrow community into a wider one. For me, it's not about whether Dante is difficult to read, or whether the Beano is easier - it's about trying to make a wondefrul form of writing and reading more accessible (as well as troubling, difficult, challenging, stimulating) to a range of people who might not otherwise even hear of 'hypertext' or 'digital literarure'. The reason I believe readers will appreciate 'clearer' bookmarks and compasses, is because the difficullties of overcoming all of the newness of hypertext, along with unusual narrative structures, AND often unclear interfaces, simply turns readers off. Not ALL readers obviously, but in my study, almost all, and that's enough for me to think there is more yet to do with interactive fiction than simply say, 'if you can't handle it, don't read it.' Jim Hi Mark,
Of course Michael Joyce couldn’t adhere to web conventions in 1987, and who would want ‘aftenoon’ to be anything but what it is, which is a wonderful piece of creativity (on a briliant platform!).
But the purpose of my work is to find out what can be done now, given we do have a huge range of tools easily available, to help writers ‘have a go’ (and in my case I’m thinking of students of all ages, amateur writers, artists – anyone who might be interested in interactive new-media narrative forms) I want to expand interactive narrative out of a narrow community into a wider one. For me, it’s not about whether Dante is difficult to read, or whether the Beano is easier – it’s about trying to make a wondefrul form of writing and reading more accessible (as well as troubling, difficult, challenging, stimulating) to a range of people who might not otherwise even hear of ‘hypertext’ or ‘digital literarure’.
The reason I believe readers will appreciate ‘clearer’ bookmarks and compasses, is because the difficullties of overcoming all of the newness of hypertext, along with unusual narrative structures, AND often unclear interfaces, simply turns readers off. Not ALL readers obviously, but in my study, almost all, and that’s enough for me to think there is more yet to do with interactive fiction than simply say, ‘if you can’t handle it, don’t read it.’
Jim

]]> By: Dennis G. Jerz http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/#comment-11378 Dennis G. Jerz Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:52:06 +0000 http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/#comment-11378 I second your call for usability, even within the bounds of creative expression. Rather than following a list of Nielsen's directives (as helpful as such a list might be) I'd say the answer is to encourage hypertext authors to beta-test the interface, as thoroughly as they revise their content, since as Mark notes, the literary experience of the audience will affect its attitude about experimentation. Just as Joyce can get away with violating the rules of grammar, when he chooses his violations carefully, I think a hypertext author can get away with violating rules of web design, if and when those violations serve the storyline. (Maybe the "home" button is grayed when Little Red Riding Hood is lost in the forest, and it displays a mouse-over text box that explains why, that sort of thing.) Emily Short has written quite a lot about using the interface in text adventure games. Incidentally, the term "interactive fiction" has been used since the mid-80s to refer specifically to parser-based command-line games, so I'd say the term "hypertext fiction" is a less ambiguous way to refer to the texts you discuss here. I second your call for usability, even within the bounds of creative expression. Rather than following a list of Nielsen’s directives (as helpful as such a list might be) I’d say the answer is to encourage hypertext authors to beta-test the interface, as thoroughly as they revise their content, since as Mark notes, the literary experience of the audience will affect its attitude about experimentation. Just as Joyce can get away with violating the rules of grammar, when he chooses his violations carefully, I think a hypertext author can get away with violating rules of web design, if and when those violations serve the storyline. (Maybe the “home” button is grayed when Little Red Riding Hood is lost in the forest, and it displays a mouse-over text box that explains why, that sort of thing.) Emily Short has written quite a lot about using the interface in text adventure games.

Incidentally, the term “interactive fiction” has been used since the mid-80s to refer specifically to parser-based command-line games, so I’d say the term “hypertext fiction” is a less ambiguous way to refer to the texts you discuss here.

]]> By: Editor http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/#comment-11377 Editor Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:20:45 +0000 http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/#comment-11377 Thanks Mark, The spelling has been corrected. Rohit Chopra Thanks Mark,

The spelling has been corrected.

Rohit Chopra

]]> By: Mark Bernstein http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/#comment-11375 Mark Bernstein Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:13:12 +0000 http://interjunction.org/article/designing-the-digital-tale/#comment-11375 Of course, it was foolish of Joyce not to adhere to "Web conventions" in _afternoon_ -- especially since Mosaic, the browser that first proposed those conventions, was written six years after _afternoon_. More seriously, of course, afternoon's links do not behave as do Web links; their behavior depends on what the reader has already seen. While one might long for orientation aids and overview menus (as I notoriously once did in my 1988 "Bookmark and Compass" paper), there's little reason to think them a good answer. We don't know where we are in our journey when we read Dante ("What? There's *two* more BOOKS?") or, indeed, in anything: we may suppose we are midway in life's journey, but who knows? For an overworked student, the ending might be a consummation devoutly to be wished. But, as Joyce wrote in _afternoon_, closure is a suspect quality. - - - - - Judy Malloy's name is mispelled in the references. Of course, it was foolish of Joyce not to adhere to “Web conventions” in _afternoon_ — especially since Mosaic, the browser that first proposed those conventions, was written six years after _afternoon_.

More seriously, of course, afternoon’s links do not behave as do Web links; their behavior depends on what the reader has already seen.

While one might long for orientation aids and overview menus (as I notoriously once did in my 1988 “Bookmark and Compass” paper), there’s little reason to think them a good answer. We don’t know where we are in our journey when we read Dante (“What? There’s *two* more BOOKS?”) or, indeed, in anything: we may suppose we are midway in life’s journey, but who knows? For an overworked student, the ending might be a consummation devoutly to be wished. But, as Joyce wrote in _afternoon_, closure is a suspect quality.

- – - – -

Judy Malloy’s name is mispelled in the references.

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